小编说：以下的访谈来自《这就是超自然》的节目，受访人是来自德国的赫尔沃耶.西罗威纳，他专长于研究荣耀。访谈由“本号”翻译。
你好，我是席德·罗斯。欢迎来到我的世界，这是一个超自然的世界。
席德:我和来自德国的赫尔沃耶.西罗威纳在一起。他以前和我们在一起过，你不应该在这里。他们不让你进入美国。你一定很努力地祈祷了。
赫尔沃耶:实际上我相信这里有上帝的安排。
席德:你在这里是因为上帝想让你在这里。你上次和我们一起访谈的时候发生了什么？
赫尔沃耶:我们被来自世界各地的电子邮件和电话淹没了。有那么多的证词。人们的见证，他们痊愈了，心脏病痊愈了，甚至家庭团聚了，商业开始繁荣，人们恢复了听力。所以这就是见证，也有很多祷告请求。
席德:他非常惊讶，因为他从来没有意识到电视和社交媒体的力量。
赫尔沃耶:这是真的。通常是在一个现场侍奉中，上帝的荣耀降临，人们得到治愈，但在这个时候，实际上是通过电视和社交媒体的电波。很神奇的。
席德:你知道什么更让我兴奋吗?当你去健身房，上帝开始启示关于“从荣耀到荣耀”的东西，10级荣耀。解释一下。
赫尔沃耶:我在健身房，我在思考和默想上帝的话语，我在默想上帝的荣耀，默想圣经，比如约翰一书4:12，圣经说，“从来没有人见过上帝。”但后来我看到了经文，我知道有很多。
赫尔沃耶:超过80个人，我在圣经中发现超过80个人看到了上帝，那就是我突然想到经文的地方，然后我回家了。我研究圣灵启示给我的，10级荣耀，以及我们如何从荣耀走向荣耀，以及它如何在我们的生活中实际地，自然地和超自然地表现出来。
席德：说到超自然现象，我听你说过一些发生在你的教众身上的事，包括你的妻子，当他们在外面，躺在地板上的时候。你和其他人看到烟雾从里面冒出来。
赫尔沃耶:是的。我们在教堂里度过了一段艰难的时光。人们和迫害接踵而至，但人们太渴望上帝了。所以在我们的祈祷会上，他们会躺在地板上，他们会把自己的生命作为一个活生生的祭品。那是多么辉煌的一段时光。在那段时间里，我们有很多治疗方法，甚至有五个人在那段时间里起死回生。但是当人们爬起来的时候，你可以看到烟从他们的肩膀和头部冒出来。我们相信这就像上帝说的”我接受你的活祭”
席德:这是对未来的预测
赫尔沃耶:噢,是的。
席德:……因为我最近一直在说”所有人都准备好”
赫尔沃耶:是的，来吧。
席德:上帝不是通过媒体或类似的东西指定一两个人成为超级明星，我要告诉你的是，所有人都要准备好。
赫尔沃耶:是的，来吧。
席德:尽你所能，解释上帝的荣耀。
赫尔沃耶：我认为在路加福音 5:26 中最好地描述了荣耀，耶稣医治了一个瘫痪的人并赦免了他的罪。圣经说：“人们看见了，就说，‘我们目睹了奇怪的事。’”“奇怪”这个词在希腊语中是 “paraxenos”，” para”的意思是从前，doxa 的意思是荣耀。从“paraxenos”我们得到这个“paradoxical”英文单词，自相矛盾的。一些疯狂的，无法解释的，一些不寻常的，一些没有意义的东西。
赫尔沃耶：所以他们目睹了一些事情，他们目睹了上帝的荣耀，这对他们的人类思想来说是没有意义的。对于所有的自然法则来说，这没有意义，这没有任何意义。这就是为什么他们说，“我们目睹了奇怪的事情”，自相矛盾的事情，但这是上帝的荣耀。那是天地重叠，超自然超越自然规则的时候。
席德：大多数人只是说，“上帝，我和我一样，让我看看你的荣耀，”但圣经说我们可以从荣耀到荣耀。这10级荣耀我真的要明白了。这10级荣耀是：
- 创造
- 神迹奇事
- 经历上帝
- 认识上帝
- 看到上帝
- 敬畏上帝
- 与上帝同行
- 上帝的面容
- 与神合一
- 无法接近的光
你呢？你是什么级别的荣耀？
赫尔沃耶：我相信我在六级，实际上我相信那是我的……是的，是的。我喜欢那个层面，因为它是敬畏上帝的层面，我相信敬畏上帝是我们生活中最重要的事情。我相信，如果你对上帝有敬畏之心，那它就是通往我们生活中所有其他荣耀奇迹步骤和经历的大门。我相信如果我们敬畏上帝，我相信……我们的国家会因为我们而改变。
赫尔沃耶：我相信我们的家庭将会改变。在圣经中，没有什么比敬畏上帝更能带来祝福的了。没什么，没什么，真的没什么。即使是耶稣，圣经也说耶稣在他最初的日子里——
席德：我从未看过一本名为《敬畏上帝》的书。它在美国或世界上都不会畅销。
赫尔沃耶：是的，但实际上你知道我们的新闻和媒体，他们喜欢恐惧。所以我相信这可能是一个好标题。
SID: 赫尔沃耶，你相信上帝的荣耀可以而且应该被体验。为什么你如此坚信这一点？
赫尔沃耶：我相信，因为你在圣经中都看到了。你看到耶稣正在行神迹。耶稣正在彰显他的荣耀。我们在约翰福音第 5 章看到有一个人瘫痪了 38 年，但他并没有在寻找耶稣，而是耶稣向他介绍了自己。他并没有要求医治，但耶稣来到他身边，因为他看到了他的需要。所以他不知道耶稣是谁，但耶稣向他介绍了自己以及耶稣做了什么，耶稣问他：“你想得到医治吗？”
赫尔沃耶：他回答的一切都是借口和怀疑，但无论如何耶稣都医治了他。所以耶稣想要医治。这不是关于我是不是基督徒吗？我信不信耶稣？就是那种，那种程度的荣耀是给每个人的，我们应该在世界上传播这种荣耀，让人们相信弥赛亚耶稣基督。
席德：你谈到了摩西和荣耀。
赫尔沃耶：是的。在出埃及记 33 章中，圣经说摩西祷告说：“让我看到荣耀。”我真的相信他能够要求更多荣耀的原因，因为圣经在第 11 节中说，上帝与摩西面对面交谈，就像朋友对朋友一样。那是荣耀的，惊人的。
赫尔沃耶：但是，在七节经文之后，他说，“让我看看你的荣耀。”他渴慕，但他为什么要问这个？我相信这是因为第 13 节他说，“神啊，给我指路。”因此，看到荣耀在他的生活中产生了无私、无私的愿望。他不想给自己更多的祝福。他想要更多的神，更少的自己。
席德:让我们来看看你教的第二级荣耀。第二级是神迹奇事。坦率地说，大多数信徒认为这不适合他们，因为他们以前从未见过。但是圣经是怎么说的，你对此有什么看法？
赫尔沃耶：哦，这是给每个人的。但我问上帝，“上帝，为什么只有二级？”他说，“这是二级，因为我不希望我的子民被困在二级。”所以他说：“还有更多，经历神迹、奇事和奇迹并不是故事的结束，这只是开始。”
赫尔沃耶：他说，“出去医治病人。出去赶鬼。出去让死人复活。力量在我们里面。”这就是圣经的教导。所以我们应该做所有这些事情，因为当我们接受耶稣基督作为我们的救主时，我们已经立即进入了那种水平的荣耀。
席德:在你真正挣扎的时候，你有过一次遭遇。你们中的许多人现在真的很挣扎。告诉我们那次相遇。
赫尔沃耶:我被拯救了。上帝救了我。我没有寻找上帝。我没有祈求上帝。我以为我爱上帝，但他不知从哪里击打了我。我想，“天啊，这太神奇了。”在我与耶稣同行的头两个月里，我觉得这就像一个奇迹之地。就像仙境一样。就好像永远都是这样。
赫尔沃耶:但是两个月后，我的肉体开始敲打我的生活，然后我经历了……我精神上的经历并没有渗透到我生活的每一部分。所以我遇到了一些问题，我生活中的罪恶问题，我想，“上帝，我不能那样做。我不知道该怎么办。”2001年的一个八月，我有了一个梦。
赫尔沃耶:在那个梦里，我在我们城市的一个体育场，那里正在进行一场摔跤比赛，一场扳手腕比赛。有个男的，块头很大。他又高又壮，打败了所有人，再也没有对手了，他看着看台说:“你。”他指着我，我想”什么?你的意思是我。不，我不能这么做。”我的想法是，“伙计，这太尴尬了。不，我不能和他扳手腕。”但他真的指的是我。
赫尔沃耶:所以我走到前面，我对自己说，“好吧，让它快点过去。”离开这栋楼。这将是令人尴尬的。”于是他握住我的手。他的手太大了，我都看不见自己的手了，然后裁判开始扳手腕比赛。我闭上眼睛，心想，“好吧，就这样。就是这样。”什么也没发生，所以我睁开眼睛，我看到他的脸涨得通红。他那么努力地想打败我。他赢不了我。
赫尔沃耶:我想:“这是我的机会。”所以我用尽我所有的力量，试图打败他，但什么都没有发生。但在那一刻，我说，“圣灵，帮助我。”我打败了他。人们开始跳起来。他们把我扛在肩上，我说:“这与我无关。这不是我。这是圣灵。”我醒来后就知道，我必须接受圣灵的洗礼才能克服所有这些困扰我的问题。
席德:就像你之前说的，人们需要了解对上帝的敬畏，但这不是你想的那样。你能解释一下吗?
赫尔沃耶:出埃及记20:20说:“不要惧怕，神来是要试验你，使他在你面前有敬畏的心。”所以你们不要惧怕，乃是应当敬畏。敬畏神，就可以排除一切的惧怕。对上帝的敬畏可以驱除我们生命中所有的恐惧。你担心你的家庭，担心你的工作。对上帝的敬畏清除了所有这些恐惧。
赫尔沃耶:对上帝的敬畏就是向上帝奔跑。不是逃避上帝。我相信这是一扇通向最高荣耀的大门。我相信如果我们敬畏上帝，我真的相信对我们来说没有什么是不可能的，没有什么是不可能的。
席德:你之前说到看见上帝，你说到那是什么?约有80人在圣经中看见神，但很少有人与神同行。
赫尔沃耶:没错。出埃及记24:9-11，这是我一生的圣经经节。我觉得没有比这更荣耀的了。圣经说，摩西，亚伦，拿答，亚比户和那七十个长老都上了山，他们看见了神，和他一起吃喝。我想，“伙计，就是这样。就是这样。来吧。就是这样。”但是，在第24章和第32章，你们看到了完全相同的人，除了摩西和约书亚建造金牛犊。他们看见了上帝，但仍然以偶像崇拜告终。
席德:很难相信。
赫尔沃耶:你知道我相信什么吗?上帝对我说，我说，“上帝，这怎么可能?”神说:“这事以后，摩西又上去了。”其他人都沉下去了。”所以其他所有人都对他们所看到的感到满意，他们也很高兴把这段经历发布到社交媒体上。但摩西对社交媒体并不满意。他想要更多的上帝。他想与上帝同行。他说，“不，不，不，见到上帝很好。和上帝一起吃饭很好。与上帝共饮固然好，但上帝会指引我你的道路。我想和你一起走。”
赫尔沃耶:我喜欢使徒行传第4章，彼得和约翰站在公会前面，公会问他们，你们知道公会怎么说吗?我们看到这些人，圣经说他们没有受过教育和训练。希腊语中未经训练的词的意思是白痴。
席德:哦，我知道这个。白痴。
赫尔沃耶:这就对了。这就是他们在彼得和约翰身上看到的，但后来他们说，“他们有些不一样。”然后他们看到他们与耶稣同行。这就是上帝的荣耀所做的。我相信上帝的荣耀，我们可以衡量上帝的荣耀。我们如何衡量神的荣耀?圣经在哥林多后书3章18节说:“我们看见神的荣耀，如同对着镜子改变一样，变成形像，从荣耀到荣耀。”
赫尔沃耶:转化成哪个图像?变成耶稣基督的形象。我们经历了多少荣耀，就看我们变成了多少耶稣基督的形象。我们是否爱得更多?我们会原谅更多吗?我们是否更多悔改?我们是否赞美更多?我们是否更渴望神的同在?
赫尔沃耶:好的，第九级，与上帝合一。与神合一。我相信这是人类能达到的最高境界。
席德:你说有10级。
赫尔沃耶:有10级，第九级对我们来说是最高的了。
席德:好的。告诉我们关于第九级的事情，因为那是我们唯一能找到的地方。
赫尔沃耶:第九级是与神合一，你知道吗?在耶稣生命中最艰难的24小时前，他做了这个祷告，他为合一而祷告。我们基督徒之间的合一，我们信徒之间的合一以及与上帝的合一。我相信合一是我们之间最强大的纽带。圣经上说上帝说的我们知道创世纪第11章关于巴别塔的故事上帝不得不混淆他们的语言因为他说，这些人是一体的，他说:“对他们来说，没有什么是不可能的。”这些都是不信的。
席德:所以，不管他们信不信，合一的法则都起作用。
赫尔沃耶:当然。为什么黑暗王国在过去几个世纪里如此成功?为什么?不是因为爱。我怀疑恶魔和黑暗的精神力量之间是否存在爱。他们为什么会成功?因为合一。
席德:但是那些在神的爱中合一行动的信徒又如何呢？
赫尔沃耶:没有什么对我们来说是不可能的，没有。什么都没有。社会转型，对我们来说没有什么是不可能的。
席德:好吧，你激起了我的好奇心。10级是什么?
赫尔沃耶:这叫做不可接近的光。圣经说上帝生活在不可接近的光中。这是为上帝保留的。我很高兴，因为没有人像他。没有人配得上他那样的地方，永远也配不上他那样的地方。他是独一无二的。他是爱的化身。他是亲切的。他是惊人的。他是如此美妙。圣经上说，最终每个人都会向他下跪，我很高兴这里有一个位置，只留给上帝。所以我说，“上帝，你知道吗?但我想和你在一起。”
赫尔沃耶:所以圣经在约翰一书4章12节说，从来没有人见过上帝，但是它说，如果我们彼此相爱，他就会住在我们里面。有一层，第十层，不可接近的光，我们永远不会到达那个地方，因为它是为上帝保留的，我很高兴，因为没有人像他。但因为他知道没有人能达到那样的水平，于是他走了下来，来到我们中间。
- 创造
- 神迹奇事
- 经历上帝
- 认识上帝
- 看到上帝
- 敬畏上帝
- 与上帝同行
- 上帝的面容
- 与神合一
- 无法接近的光
英文原文：
Hello, Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. Germany came out of their COVID economic crisis supernaturally, and it actually made national headlines. Next. Sid Roth has spent over 40 years researching the strange world of the supernatural. Join Sid for this edition of It’s Supernatural!
SID: I am here with Hrvoje Sirovina and he’s from Germany. He’s been with us before and you weren’t supposed to be here. They wouldn’t let you into the United States. You must have really prayed hard.
HRVOJE: No, actually I believe there is an agenda of God here.
SID: I believe that also.
HRVOJE: He—
SID: You’re here because God wants you here. What happened the last time you did a show with us
HRVOJE: We got overwhelmed with emails, phone calls from all over the world. There were so many testimonies. Testimonies of people, they got healed, heart diseases got healed and even families got reunited, businesses started to flourish, people received hearing again. So it was like testimonies and testimonies but also a lot of prayer requests.
SID: He was very surprised because he never realized the power of television and social media that the healings were as easy as if he laid hands on people.
HRVOJE: That’s true. Usually it’s in a service where the glory of God comes and people get healed but in this time it was really through the airwaves of television and social media. Amazing.
SID: And in your congregation in Germany you said enough was enough and you declared May the miracle month in your church. But you got much more than that. What happened?
HRVOJE: That’s true. Actually there were selfish reasons because at the end of May it is our annual family vacation. So I said no. And all the borders were closed, shut down. So we were like, “No, no, no. I have to go to have my family vacation this year.” I declared the month of May as a miracle month and I started to preach about dancing through the storm.
SID: And the newspapers, actually the secular newspapers picked this up and ran headlines.
HRVOJE: Yes, that’s true. Even to the last day, day before we had to leave for our vacation, nothing looked like the borders are going to open up. Nothing looked like that our government is taking down the lockdown. So we prayed. I prayed. I proclaimed and the very next day our newspaper, our May newspaper, the headlines were, “Germany Is Dancing Again”.
Audience: Amen.
SID: Don’t you tell me things are impossible in your life. He got to go on vacation.
HRVOJE: Come on.
SID: National headlines.
HRVOJE: Come on.
SID: “Germany Is Dancing Again.” Wow. But you know what excites me even more? When you went to the gym and God began to download things about going from glory to glory, the 10 levels of glory. Explain that.
HRVOJE: I was in the gym and I was thinking and meditating on the word of God and I was meditating about the glory of God and meditating about scriptures like in 1 John 4:12 where the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God at any time.” But then scriptures came up where I saw and I know there are so many.
HRVOJE: Over 80 people, I found over 80 people in the Bible who saw God and that’s where suddenly scripture after scripture came to my mind and I went home. I studied and that’s what the Holy Spirit revealed to me, the 10 levels of glory and how we go from glory to glory and how it manifests practically, naturally and supernaturally in our lives.
SID: Speaking of supernaturally, I heard you tell something that happened to members of your congregation, including your wife when they were out in the spirit, laying on the floor. You and others saw smoke coming out of them.
HRVOJE: Yeah, we had that. We had a pretty rough time in the church. People and persecution coming up but people were so hungry for God. So in our prayer meetings they would lay down on the floor, they would just give their lives as a living sacrifice. It was such a glorious time. In that time we had a lot of healings, even five people raised from the dead during that time. But when people would rise up, come up again you could see smoke coming out of their shoulders and their head. We believe it was like God said, “I accept your living sacrifice.”
SID: It’s a foretaste of what is coming—
HRVOJE: Oh yeah.
SID: … because the statement that I’ve been saying lately is, “All hands on deck.”
HRVOJE: Come on.
SID: It’s not just one or two people that God anoints to become superstars through media or something like that and I’m saying to you that all hands on deck.
HRVOJE: Come on.
SID: As best you can, explain the glory of God.
HRVOJE: I think the glory is best described in Luke 5:26 where Jesus healed a paralyzed man and forgave his sin. The Bible says, “The people saw that and they say, ‘We have witnessed strange things.'” The word strange is par鍃enos in Greek and para means before and doxa means glory. And par鍃enos we get the word, the English word, paradoxical. Something crazy, unexplainable, something unusual, something which doesn’t make sense.
HRVOJE: So they witnessed something, they witnessed the glory of God and it doesn’t make sense for their human mind. It doesn’t make sense for all the natural laws. It doesn’t make sense from it. That’s why they say, “We have witnessed strange things,” paradoxical things but it was the glory of God. It’s when heaven and Earth overlap and the supernatural overrides the rules of the natural.
SID: Most people just say, “God, I’m like me, show me your glory,” but then the Bible says we can go from glory to glory to glory. I’ve really got to understand these 10 levels of glory. How about you? What level of glory are you at?
HRVOJE: Oh, number one.
SID: Next question.
HRVOJE: I believe I am in level six and actually I believe that’s my … yeah, yeah. I love that level because it’s the level of the fear of God and I believe that the fear of God is the most important thing in our lives. I believe if you have the fear of God that it is a doorway to all other glorious miraculous steps and experiences in our lives. I believe if we have the fear of God I believe we are going to … our countries are going to be changed because of us.
Audience: Yes.
HRVOJE: I believe our families are going to be changed. In the Bible there is nothing which is connected to more blessings than to the fear of God. Nothing, nothing, really nothing. Even Jesus, the Bible says that Jesus during the days of his first—
SID: I never saw a book titled The Fear of God. It was not a big seller in America, or the world for that matter.
HRVOJE: Yeah, but you know actually our news and media, they like fear. So I believe it might be a good title.
SID: I’ll tell you what, when we come back Hrvoje will reveal what he has discovered about accessing unlimited glory, unlimited. Audience: Amen.
We now return to It’s Supernatural.
SID: Hrvoje, you believe that the glory of God can and should be experienced. Why do you believe this so strongly?
HRVOJE: I believe because you see it all over the Bible. You see that Jesus is doing miracles. Jesus is revealing his glory. We see in John 5 where there is a person who was paralyzed for 38 years, yet he wasn’t looking for Jesus but Jesus introduced himself to him. He wasn’t asking for healing yet Jesus came to him because he saw his need. So he didn’t know who Jesus was but Jesus introduced himself to him and what Jesus did, Jesus asked him, “Do you want to be healed?”
HRVOJE: And everything, what he answered was excuses and doubt and yet Jesus healed him anyways. So Jesus wants to heal. It’s not about am I a Christian or not? Do I believe in Jesus or not? It’s that kind, that level of glory is for everybody and we should spread that kind of glory in the world for people to believe in the Messiah Jesus Christ.
Audience: Amen.
SID: You talked about Moses and the glory.
HRVOJE: Yeah. In Exodus 33 the Bible says that Moses prayed, “Show me the glory.” I really believe the reason why he was able to ask for more of glory because in verse 11 the Bible says that God spoke to Moses face-to-face like a friend to a friend. That is glorious. That is amazing.
HRVOJE: But yet, seven verses later he said, “Show me your glory.” He was hungry. He was hungry but why could he ask that? And I believe it’s because of verse 13 where he says, “God, show me your way.” So seeing glory produced unselfish, unselfish wishes in his life. He didn’t want more blessings for himself. He wanted more of God and less of himself.
Audience: Amen.
SID: Let’s take level two of glory that you teach on. Level two is signs and wonders. Let’s be candid, most believers think it’s not for them because they’ve never seen it before. But what does the Bible and what do you say about that?
HRVOJE: Oh, it’s for everybody. But I asked God, “God, why is it only at level two?” He said, “It’s level two because I don’t want my people to get stuck at level two.” So he said, “There is more and from experiencing signs, wonders and miracles is not the end of the story. It’s just the beginning.”
HRVOJE: And he said, “Go out and heal the sick. Go out, cast out demons. Go out and raise the dead. The power is in us.” And that’s what the Bible teaches. So we are supposed to do all these things because we have stepped into that kind and level of glory immediately when we received Jesus Christ as our savior.
SID: You had quite an encounter at a time when you were really struggling. Many of you are really struggling right now. Tell us about that encounter.
HRVOJE: I got saved. God saved me. I didn’t look for God. I didn’t ask for God. I thought I loved God but he hit me like from nowhere. I thought, “God, this is so amazing.” The first two months of my walk with Jesus I thought this is like miracle land. It’s like wonderland. This is like it’s always going to be like that.
HRVOJE: But after two months my flesh started to knock on my life and then I experienced … what I’ve experienced in my spirit it didn’t spill over into every part of my life. So I struggled with some issues, sin issues in my life and I thought, “God, I can’t do that. I don’t know what to do.” And then one August in 2001 I got a dream.
HRVOJE: In that dream I was in a stadium in our city and there was a wrestling match going on, an arm wrestling match. There was a guy, he was huge. He was so tall, he was so strong, he beat everybody and there was no opponent any more and he was looking into the stands and he said, “You.” He was pointing towards me and I thought, “What? You mean me. No, I can’t do that.” My mind was like, “Man, that is embarrassing. No, I can’t arm wrestle with him.” But he really meant me.
HRVOJE: So I went to the front, I thought to myself, “Okay, let it just go over quick. Just leave the building. It’s going to be embarrassing.” So he took my hand. His hand was so big I couldn’t see my hand and then the referee started the arm wrestling match. I closed my eyes and I thought, “Okay, that’s it. That’s it.” Nothing happened so I opened my eyes and I saw he was red in his face. He tried so hard to beat me. He couldn’t beat me.
HRVOJE: I thought, “This is my opportunity.” So I took all of my strength and tried to beat him but nothing happened. But in that moment I said, “Holy Spirit, help me.” I beat him. People started to jump. They took me on their shoulders and I said, “It has nothing to do with me. It’s not me. It’s the Holy Spirit.” I woke up and I knew, I have to get baptized with the Holy Spirit to get over all these issues I was struggling with.
SID: There is such a need for people, as you said earlier, to understand the fear of the Lord but it’s not what you think. Would you explain that?
HRVOJE: Exodus 20:20 says, “Fear not, God came to test you that his fear might be before you.” So fear not, but you should be afraid, which means the fear of God casts out all other fears. The fear of God may cast out all our fears you have in life. The fears you have concerning your family, concerning your job. The fear of God casts all of these fears.
HRVOJE: Having the fear of God is running towards God. It’s not running away from God. I believe it’s a door and gateway to the highest levels of glory. I believe if we have the fear of God I really believe that nothing’s going to be impossible for us, nothing.
SID: You talked earlier about seeing God and you talked about what was it? Some 80 people saw God in the Scriptures but few walked with God.
HRVOJE: That’s right. Exodus 24:9-11, that was my life Bible verse. I thought it can’t get any more glorious than that. The Bible says that Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and the 70 elders they went up to the mountain, they saw God and ate and drank with him. I thought, “Man, that’s it. That’s it. Come on. That’s it.” But then, that’s chapter 24 and in chapter 32 you see exactly the same guys except Moses and Joshua building the golden calf. The saw God yet still they ended up in idolatry.
SID: It’s hard to believe.
HRVOJE: You know what I believe? God said to me, I said, “God, how is this possible?” And God said, “Because after that incident Moses went further up. All others went down.” So all others were satisfied with what they saw and they were happy to just post it on the social media about that experience. But Moses wasn’t happy with social media. He wanted more of God. He wanted to walk with God. He said, “No, no, no it’s fine to see God. It’s fine to eat with God. It’s fine to drink with God but God show me your way. I want to walk with you.”
HRVOJE: Acts 4. I love Acts 4 where Peter and John were in front of the Sanhedrin and the Sanhedrin questioned them and you know what the Sanhedrin said? We see these guys and the Bible says they are uneducated and untrained. The word untrained in Greek is idiotes.
SID: Oh I know that one. Idiot.
HRVOJE: There you go. That’s what they saw in Peter and John but then they said, “Something is different with them.” And then they saw they walked, they have been with Jesus. And that’s what the glory of God does. I believe the glory of God, we can measure the glory of God. How can we measure the glory of God? The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 3:18, “Beholding like in a mirror the glory of God being transformed into the image from glory to glory.”
HRVOJE: Transformed into which image? Into the image of Jesus Christ. How much glory we have experienced is measured by how much are we transformed into the same image as Jesus Christ. Do we love more? Do we forgive more? Do we repent more? Do we praise more? Do we long more for the presence of God?
SID: Okay, level nine, unity with God.
HRVOJE: Unity with God. I believe that’s the highest level any human will ever reach.
SID: You said there were 10 levels.
HRVOJE: There are 10. That’s the highest for us.
SID: Okay. Tell us about the ninth.
HRVOJE: The ninth—
SID: Since that’s the only one we can reach.
HRVOJE: Level nine is unity with God and you know what? 24 hours before the hardest time of Jesus’ life he prays this prayer and he prays for unity. Unity between us Christians, between us believers and unity with God. I believe unity is the strongest bond between us. The Bible says that what God said and we know the story about the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 and God had to mess up their languages because he said, “These people are as one.” And he said, “Nothing is going to be impossible for them.” These were unbelievers.
SID: So the law of unity operates whether they’re believers or not.
HRVOJE: Absolutely. Look, why is the kingdom of darkness so successful in the last centuries? Why? Not because of love. I doubt there is any love in between demons and spiritual forces of darkness. Why are they successful? Because of unity.
SID: But how much more can believers that operate in God’s love in unity—
HRVOJE: Ah, man.
SID: … accomplish if a non-believer could do it.
HRVOJE: Nothing is going to be impossible for us, nothing. Nothing.
Audience: Amen
HRVOJE: Transformation of society, transformation of society, nothing is going to be impossible for us, nothing.
SID: Okay, you piqued my curiosity. What is this 10th level?
HRVOJE: It’s called the unapproachable light. And the Bible says God lives in an unapproachable light. It’s reserved for God and I’m so … Oh, I’m sorry. And I’m so glad about that because no one is like him. No one deserves a place like him, will never deserve a place like him. He is one of a kind. He is all love. He’s gracious. He’s amazing. He’s so wonderful. The Bible says that eventually every knee will bow before him and I’m so glad that there is a place, it’s only reserved for God. So I said, “God, you know what? But I want to be with you.”
HRVOJE: So the Bible says in 1 John 4:12 that no one has ever seen God at all time but then it says if we love one another he’s going to abide in us. There is a level, the 10th level, the unapproachable light, we will never get to that place because it’s reserved for God and I’m so glad for that because no one is like him. But because he knows no one is ever get to that level, what he did, he stepped down and came and dwelt in us.
Audience: Amen.
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SID: Next week on It’s Supernatural!
Jim Maxim: The odds were stacked against me. I was addicted to alcohol, on drugs. I was at the very edge of death. I had a violent car crash where my face went through the windshield and lacerated my face like a bunch of razor blades. I had no hope in my life. It was over for me the way I knew it and then all of a sudden, Jesus appeared to me and he made me an offer that I couldn’t refuse. An offer that would change my life forever. Hi, I’m Jim Maxim, join with me on the next It’s Supernatural with Sid Roth and learn how this offer stands for you today.
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